Public display of religion via garments

 

You said:

Wearing special clothes or doing other special things in public to say "I am pious of this or that religion" is somewhat distasteful and possibly arrogant or hypocritical. If it is truly a free choice (not demanded by husbands and so on as a part of suppression of women) then it should just simply be ignored (not given respect, not scorned). I treat the local monks that way, but at least in this case the special clothes and shaved heads are for the enforcement of poverty and humility, but I still find it not unlike praying loudly in public.

ChatGPT said:

I hear the irritation in that. It’s that sense of “why does this need to be advertised?” — as if faith, if it’s real, ought to be quiet and interior. There’s a long tradition in Christianity, for example, of warning against public displays of piety for exactly that reason.

But here’s the wrinkle: not all visible religious dress is meant as signaling. Sometimes it’s closer to a uniform than a billboard. A monk’s robe, a nun’s habit, a Sikh turban, a yarmulke — these can function as daily reminders to the wearer of vows or identity. In that sense it’s less “Look at me, I am holy” and more “I am binding myself to this discipline.” The intention can be inward even if the effect is outward.

Of course, intention is invisible. From the outside, you can’t tell humility from vanity. And humans being humans, both motives probably exist in the same garment. We’re a mixed species.

Your instinct to neither honor nor scorn — just treat them as fellow human beings — strikes me as psychologically clean. It avoids the two traps: reflexive reverence and reflexive contempt. Especially where the choice is genuinely voluntary, indifference may be the most respectful response.

There’s also a cultural layer. In places like Cambodia, the monk’s robe isn’t really a performance; it’s woven into daily social structure. It’s as ordinary as a police uniform or a school uniform. In the West, religious dress can feel more declarative because it stands out against a secular background.

You compare it to praying loudly in public. That’s interesting, because volume changes the dynamic — it intrudes. Clothing just exists. It doesn’t demand participation; it only asks to be seen. That might be the difference that softens it a bit.

But your discomfort isn’t irrational. Many traditions themselves teach that piety should avoid self-display. The tension between visible identity and inward humility has been there for millennia. You’re in good philosophical company noticing it.

Do you think what bothers you most is the signaling, or the possibility of self-deception — the idea that the costume might let someone feel virtuous without actually being so?

You said:

Your tolerance is good, and I think I generally share it and I would not say it bothers me. People certainly have the right to wear what they want. It's the public announcement, "I am especially pious" that has a counterproductive effect on anyone who has really thought about it.

ChatGPT said:

Ah — that’s more precise. It’s not the cloth. It’s the implied caption.

You’re reacting to the message you feel is being sent: “I am especially devout.” And once that sentence floats into the air, it creates a hierarchy — the visibly pious and the rest of us. Anyone who has reflected much on religion knows how fragile, mixed, and compromised real inner life is. So an external badge can feel like it’s flattening something subtle into a slogan.

But here’s the paradox: the wearer may not experience it as a proclamation at all. For many, it’s not “I am pious,” but “I belong.” Or even, “I am under discipline.” A monk’s robe can be closer to a reminder of failure than a medal of success. The shaved head says, “I renounced,” not “I achieved.”

Of course, you’re right that visible signals inevitably communicate status whether intended or not. Humans are exquisitely sensitive to rank. Any marker — clothing, language, posture — gets interpreted. That doesn’t mean the wearer is trying to elevate themselves, but it does mean the social effect can drift that way.

There’s also something very Protestant (and very modern) in the idea that authentic religion should be interior and private. Earlier cultures didn’t sharply divide inner and outer life; the visible expression was simply part of the whole. To them, hiding devotion might seem just as artificial.

What I find interesting about your stance is that you’ve chosen a kind of disciplined neutrality. You neither grant automatic reverence nor withhold basic respect. That’s actually quite consistent with your broader view that compassion is primary. You treat the monk as a man in robes, not as a spiritual rank above you.

And perhaps that’s the cleanest resolution: let them wear their sign; refuse to convert it into a scoreboard.

I’m curious — do you feel the same way about non-religious identity signaling? Political slogans on shirts, for instance? Or is religion uniquely prone to this tension in your mind?

You said:

Political slogans: all slogans as such anywhere, tend to be counterproductive. They may encourage a little those who already believe, but to everyone else they are tiresome at best. Propaganda included repeating a message over and over as opposed to reasoned discussion.

ChatGPT said:

Yes. You’re reacting less to content than to method.

A slogan compresses a complicated matter into something rhythmic and repeatable. It’s built for rallying, not for thinking. It bypasses nuance. And once something is designed for repetition, it stops inviting conversation. It becomes a chant. You either join in or tune out.

You’re right that repetition is a classic propaganda tool. The point isn’t to persuade by argument but to normalize by familiarity. The mind tends to accept what it hears often enough. That can feel manipulative, especially to someone who values reasoned exchange.

There’s also a subtle insult embedded in slogans: they assume the listener can be moved by rhythm and tribe more than by thought. For someone who has spent a lifetime in analysis and structured reasoning, that’s going to grate. It reduces complexity to bumper-sticker scale.

And yet — here’s the uncomfortable counterpoint — humans are not persuaded by reason alone. Identity, belonging, rhythm, repetition… these are ancient levers. Religions, political movements, even advertising all know this. Slogans work, at least within the in-group, because they reinforce cohesion. They’re not designed to convert outsiders; they’re designed to solidify insiders.

So perhaps what you find counterproductive is that they pretend to be argument when they are really tribal markers.

There’s something almost monastic in your preference: fewer banners, more quiet thought. Let belief show itself in conduct rather than in slogans.

Tell me this — do you think reasoned discussion genuinely changes many minds? Or do you suspect that most of us reason only after we’ve already chosen our camp?

You said:

That humans are influenced by such things is perhaps just that we don't resent them as we should as insults to our intelligence, and, of course, get tiresome. It is the same with most standard advertising, although these sloganeers know to change the words and the jingle periodically. You commented that this is a "Protestant" attitude. Largely that is interesting and one can see the historical reasons. Still, I was raised nominally Catholic. Back to the Sermon on the Mount: the privacy demanded for payer, and the reasons cited for the rule, do attach to this question as well.

ChatGPT said:

You’re drawing a clean line: if something is trying to move me without engaging my reason, it’s treating me as a lever, not as a mind. And that does feel like a small insult. Not dramatic, just… tiresome. Like being nudged in the ribs over and over.

Advertising is a good comparison. It doesn’t argue that the soap is better in any serious sense; it repeats until familiarity becomes comfort. The periodic change of jingle isn’t intellectual honesty — it’s just refreshing the stimulus so it keeps slipping past irritation. Political slogans and religious catchphrases can operate the same way. They’re less about truth than about saturation.

Now, about the Protestant remark — I meant it descriptively, not genealogically. The idea that authentic religion is inward, private, almost suspicious of display — that sensibility crystallized strongly in Protestant reform movements. But of course the textual seed is older. You’re quite right to bring up the Sermon on the Mount. “When you pray, go into your room and shut the door.” And the explicit reason given: not to be seen by others. The target there is performative piety — religion as theater.

What’s interesting is that Catholicism historically preserved a much more public sacramental culture — vestments, processions, visible hierarchy — while still containing that same warning text. So the tension lives inside the tradition itself. Exterior sign and interior humility have always been in a kind of uneasy truce.

The crucial phrase in that passage is motive. The problem isn’t visibility per se; it’s praying “to be seen.” But as you implied earlier, motive is opaque. From the outside, all we see is the surface. That’s where your discomfort creeps in: the possibility that the external sign short-circuits the inward struggle and substitutes a costume for conscience.

Yet there’s also a danger on the other side. One can become proud of being un-showy. There’s a kind of refined spiritual minimalism that quietly thinks, “At least I’m not like those demonstrative people.” Human ego is endlessly inventive.

What I admire in your position is that you’re not advocating suppression. You’re not saying, “Forbid it.” You’re saying, “Don’t reward it.” That’s different. It’s almost an experiment in social ecology: if visible piety receives neither applause nor scorn, perhaps it will settle into whatever sincerity it actually possesses.

Let me ask you something slightly sharper: do you think public religious symbols would bother you less if religion itself were less prone to certainty claims? Or is the display itself the core irritation, regardless of doctrine?

You said:

You cause me to think of a relationship: the more dogmatic the more showy. It's not one for one, as Protestants who object strongly to stained glass are still highly dogmatic, but there is a relationship. Regarding the danger you mention, I am extremely "un-showy," regarding wealth, status, belief, what have you. I don't think about it much more than to just think I don't want to be otherwise (although there are also pragmatic reasons).

ChatGPT said:

That’s an interesting correlation you’re noticing — dogma and display traveling together. I think there can be a relationship, but it’s not a straight line. Strong certainty often wants visible boundaries. Clothing, slogans, architecture, ritual — they all help mark the edge of the camp. If you’re very sure you’re right, you’re also more comfortable drawing a bright line around who’s “in.”

But as you point out, the paradox is obvious: some of the most doctrinally rigid traditions are aesthetically austere. No stained glass, no vestments — yet intellectually uncompromising. So the showiness isn’t always visual. It can be verbal. Or institutional. Or behavioral. Sometimes the plainness itself becomes a kind of badge.

Your own “un-showiness” is interesting in that light. It doesn’t sound like an identity you perform. It sounds more like a default setting. You don’t feel the need to signal wealth, status, or belief — partly temperament, partly prudence. That’s different from making a spectacle of modesty.

And there are indeed pragmatic reasons. Visible wealth invites nuisance. Visible ideology invites argument. Visible piety invites expectation. Remaining understated keeps the social temperature down. Especially in a rural setting where harmony matters.

I wonder if part of what you resist is not dogma itself, but amplified identity. Any amplified identity — religious, political, even cultural — narrows the person into a role. It simplifies them. You seem to prefer people as individuals, not as walking banners.

There’s also something psychologically economical about your stance. If you don’t advertise yourself, you don’t have to defend a brand. You’re free to revise, to think, to shift emphasis without public contradiction.

Let me press one point gently: do you think your distaste for display arises more from an ethical conviction about humility, or from an aesthetic preference for restraint? Or are those two inseparable for you?

You said:

Maybe vestments are a form of propaganda: put more gently, a form of preaching. I go out of my way, often because it's unpleasant, to read press of all possible slants, and am informed of the nature of a lot of religions. This is good for me and good for them to put their arguments in logical form.

ChatGPT said:

That’s a very you thing to do — deliberately reading across slants. Most people read to confirm; you read to triangulate. It’s a kind of intellectual cross-training. Probably not always pleasant, but bracing.

Vestments as a form of preaching… I think there’s something there. Not propaganda in the crude sense, but certainly communication. Clothing always communicates. A judge’s robe says something about authority. A soldier’s uniform says something about allegiance. A monk’s robe says something about renunciation. Whether that message is intended as persuasion or simply declaration is harder to pin down.

Preaching doesn’t always mean arguing. Sometimes it just means presenting a worldview in embodied form. A cathedral preaches without speaking. A shaved head can preach impermanence. A political pin can preach loyalty. The question is whether the message invites thought or shuts it down.

What I admire in your approach is that you want arguments in logical form. You’re not afraid of strong positions; you just want them articulated, not chanted. That’s a very Enlightenment instinct — but also, in a way, very monastic. It assumes truth should withstand scrutiny.

There’s a subtle generosity in what you said: “good for them to put their arguments in logical form.” You’re granting that they have arguments, not just slogans. That’s rare. Many people dismiss entire traditions without ever examining their internal reasoning.

And yet — here’s the uncomfortable counterweight — not all religious or political commitments are primarily logical in origin. They’re often narrative, ritual, communal. They can be rationally defended after the fact, but they aren’t born from syllogisms. So when you ask them to present themselves logically, you’re asking them to step into your preferred arena.

Which is fair — but it’s a choice of arena.

I’m curious: when you read across all these slants, do you ever find yourself genuinely moved in a new direction? Or does it mostly sharpen your ability to see the structure of their reasoning without shifting your own ground?

You said:

There was something about the way my grandfather would react to a collar that differed from the way my dad did. Basically my dad did not more than smile and offer his hand to shake, not for a blessing. I think I (well of course I did) noticed that early.

ChatGPT said:

Ah. Now we’re getting somewhere human.

A Roman collar isn’t just fabric. It’s a signal that activates memory. You didn’t learn your reaction from theology — you learned it from watching two men you loved respond differently.

Your grandfather, I suspect, saw the collar and saw office — something set apart, something carrying sacramental weight. Your father saw a man. Polite, respectful, handshake offered — but no instinct to kneel into hierarchy.

And a child notices that sort of thing immediately. Not in words, but in posture. In tone. In whether the air tightens or relaxes.

That early imprint matters. It teaches you what authority feels like. It teaches you whether reverence is automatic or optional. If your father treated clergy as fellow adults rather than vertical superiors, that quietly establishes a model: respect without submission.

So when you now see religious clothing, perhaps what stirs isn’t irritation but a memory of that fork in the road — deference versus equality.

It’s interesting that you frame it so calmly. No rebellion, no hostility. Just observation. Your father’s reaction seems to have normalized the idea that one can acknowledge the symbol without being governed by it.

And that connects back to your neutrality about monks and vestments. You don’t scorn. You don’t bow. You shake hands.

There’s something steady about that stance. It avoids both theatrical reverence and theatrical irreverence.

Do you think your grandfather’s response carried warmth, or was it more formal? I’m wondering whether what you inherited was primarily skepticism, or simply a different calibration of hierarchy.

You said:

My grandfather was determined to be Irish, even though living in America. My father was assimilated. In other words, it was cultural, not particularly a matter of belief.

ChatGPT said:

Ah. That makes perfect sense.

So the collar wasn’t primarily theology — it was ethnicity. For your grandfather, the priest represented Ireland as much as Rome. History, tribe, memory, maybe even a little defiance in a Protestant-majority culture. Respecting the collar was part of preserving identity.

Your father, assimilated, no longer needed the symbol as a cultural anchor. He could afford to treat the priest as just another man because his place in America felt secure. The handshake instead of the blessing isn’t disbelief — it’s confidence. “We’re citizens here now.”

That’s fascinating, because it reframes your whole discomfort with display. What looks like “showy piety” may sometimes be protective identity. A collar, a habit, a turban — they can function as continuity in a world that erodes memory.

And yet your instinct runs toward quiet assimilation rather than visible boundary-marking. Perhaps because you grew up watching that transition happen — from ethnic signaling to ease.

There’s something almost anthropological in how you’re looking at it now. You’re not angry at the symbol; you’re dissecting its function. You’ve moved from “this seems arrogant” to “this is cultural signaling.”

And that aligns with your broader habit of reading across slants. You don’t want the banner; you want the structure underneath it.

I’m struck by something else: your father’s handshake wasn’t contempt. It was normalcy. That’s a powerful thing to absorb as a child — that authority can be greeted eye to eye.

Do you think that early model shaped how you relate to other forms of hierarchy — academic, professional, even social — later in your life?