More on evil brings its own evil

Spiders are definitely beautiful; that is another issue, right now I'm talking about right and wrong.

It is I think a common mistake to look at history and see that some horrible evils have in various societies been tolerated and even encouraged, and from that conclude that ethics are relative to the culture.  That is a non sequitur.  Slavery is the best example, but there are of course others.  That slavery has existed (and still exists) does not mean it is right.  It might be compared to someone saying that in all possible geometries parallel lines never intersect.  This was accepted generally for thousand years and even enthroned as an axiom, but now we know it is not true.  In short, in mathematics -- and in ethics -- that something is believed does not make it true -- or right.

How do we determine truth in mathematics?  Or in science?  Of course we never have absolute truth (a complete description) nor do we ever have absolute certainty (there always lurks the possibility of error), but over time mankind has made obvious scientific, mathematical and ethical progress.  We now understand slavery is wrong, and nowadays brand slavers as criminal.  This is done through the use of reason and observation -- in mathematics mainly via "proof" which is nothing more than rigorous reason.  In science via observation, experiment and, in the end, reason (thinking about and interpreting what we see).

The point is we find these things, we do not make them up.  We do not invent science or mathematics or ethics, we discover them, and over time we slowly eliminate the errors and build the edifice of truth that it is all based on.  This edifice, however, exists in a Platonic sense on its own, regardless of what we think or even if we never existed.

On the other issue we've disagreed on here, I would say that in the end justice is inevitable, based on nothing more than the laws of probability.  The vast majority of criminals end up sooner or later in jail or worse.  Those who are dishonest or gossips or self-righteous or judgmental and so on (and to an extent of course we all are) pay for it in all sorts of small ways, via our reputation, the happiness of ourselves and our families, and so on.  Also, I just don't buy it that powerful evil succeeds.  The Hitlers and Stalins of this world come to bad ends and history subsequently dishonors them.

I do not, however, see how this can be said to be the basis of any sort of religion.  It is just natural processes (here again the laws of probability for the most part).  Take a chance often enough and sooner or later you will lose.